maxamet vs s110v
You will also see I have two compositions listed for S110V, one labeled “patent” and one labeled “final.” The initial version of S110V was modified leading to the version that we have today. Become a patron and gain access to awesome rewards including early access to articles or a Knife Steel Nerds mug! my original corrosion resistance experiments. S110V is a powder metallurgy stainless tool steel with very high wear resistance. most of these carbides are of M6C type while only 1.7% by volume is vandium carbides . The Mo content of M390 is lower, however, so it is difficult to predict how things balance out when comparing higher Cr vs higher Mo. What is its hardness? One change to S110V was a reduction in Nb from 3.5% to 3%. I imagine a steel combining the corrosion resistance of marine-grade 316 stainless steel with the edge resistance of M4 , 15V or even Rex121 in the near future . Auch von einer Ruinierung der Schneide kann nicht die Rede sein. P'Kal™ G-10 Red Trainer. 154CM, dating back to around 1959, had 4% Mo though the Mo addition was to maintain hardness at higher temperatures in bearing applications, not necessarily improved corrosion resistance. And other questions). S110V is essentially S90V with more C, Cr, Co, Mo, and Nb, and it is difficult to think of scenarios where adding more of those elements would lead to reduced edge retention. It’s high-speed tool steel made by @CarpenterTechnology. Es hatte geheißen, daß Armhaare nicht denkbar seien. The patent for S110V and the original datasheet released in September 2008 (I archived it here) is the original composition labeled as “patent” in the composition table. But the chromium increase was more than was necessary to achieve a similar amount of chromium in solution (see the table below), and they also decreased the Mo content by a similar amount to how much the Cr was increased (from 3.5 to 2.25%), so the reason for that change is not completely clear to me. Native® 5 G-10 Dark Blue CPM S110V. Your email address will not be published. Perhaps they identified high Mo as an issue as well, such as difficulty in annealing or excessive hardenability leading to cracking during cooling after forging. Native® 5 G-10 Black. The reduction in Mo from the original version (3.5%) to the final version (2.25%) likely means that these values are no longer accurate. In heat treatments of S30V, S35VN, S45VN, and SPY27, an increase in austenitizing temperature was found to increase both hardness and toughness, so this result would be consistent with that. I tested S45VN in my 1% saltwater spray corrosion test. Eine extreme Legierung mit unglaublichen Härtewerten und einer atemberaubenden Schnitthaltigkeit. And with some users reporting difficulty in deburring S110V (usually means high retained austenite), I’m not sure I would actually recommend heat treating S110V from 2150°F despite the apparent superior hardness-toughness balance. This might be happening because the knives are from different manufacturers, using different heat treat and blade grinds? Both are ridiculously difficult to sharpen. As I wrote in my M398 article, I am not a big fan of the steel because of its coarse structure and relatively low toughness. I swap the parts around. With that said, the difference between the 2 is that the 0888 is uncoated and comes with a composite S110V and 14C28N blade, while the 0888MAX is black DLC coated and approximately half of the 0888MAX knives feature Maxamet steel, and the other half have M390 steel bl… Native® 5 G-10 Black. S110V's data sheet mentions, for example, that it has better corrosion resistance than S90V. The Maxamet steel in considered as a “Super Steel”, So it’s a High-end Alloy steel, with an uncommon chemical composition, but I can say that the closest one to it is the CPM S110V(even if it’s stainless steel), in exception of wear resistance; the Maxamet is a great match for the S110v in edge retention, hardness, wear-resistance and price range which is between 100-200 Usd. The changes were likely made to improve “manufacturability,” such as issues with gas atomization, forging, or annealing of the steel. Maxamet’s distinguishing metallurgical characteristic is the high carbon content (2.15%) and the inclusion of 10% Tungsten. Instead, the inventors of S110V used cobalt, which is an austenite stabilizer at high temperatures but does not increase retained austenite when quenching to martensite, unlike Ni and Mn. this should be called “super steel” . Making high corrosion resistance steels with high chromium in solution also leads to more retained austenite, as explained in this article on Vanax steel. Thanks to Aaron @ Gough Custom, Aaron McVay, Mark Scott, Jeffrey St. Claire, Grant Seim III, and saiiiiiii1 for becoming Knife Steel Nerds Patreon supporters! For reference, steels like S110V and ZDP 189 are taken up to the low 60s (maybe as high as 65 for ZDP-189). In Stock . Therefore, the approach with S110V was to have a combination of vanadium and niobium to improve corrosion resistance as much as possible while avoiding issues that come along with excess niobium. To put S110V into context, we should compare the composition of the steel with previous Crucible products to see how the evolution led to S110V. $145.00. Native® 5 G-10 Dark Blue CPM S110V. https://www.patreon.com/Knifesteelnerds, Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window). The 0888MAX has an overall length of 9.125″, a 3.75″ blade, a weight of 7.56 ounces, and is made in the USA. the effect of cobalt on raising martensite start temperature inspires me an idea . The same knives in S110V are listed about 30% cheaper than the Maxamet knives of the same model. It does offer the best sharpenability of the very high edge retention stainless steels because of less vanadium carbide, however, and it also has very good corrosion resistance. Sie ist lediglich nicht mehr fein geschlossen. $145.00. As mentioned in the niobium section, there are limits to niobium alloying with typical powder metallurgy steel production. However, there is a very specific reason that cobalt is found in S110V. This is not scientific, bit here goes. You’ll pay for it though, at roughly 1.5x the price. There is another aspect of S110V vs S90V that I would like to mention. Using the numbers 0.5% carbon and 18% Cr Ms is too low for avoiding excessive retained austenite. Micro Melt Maxamet Alloy can be supplied as steel plate/ sheet, round steel bar, steel tube/pipe, steel stripe, steel billet, steel ingot, steel wire rods. In Stock . Native® 5 Salt® $186.00. Toughness: Due to his high hardness, it has low toughness. Pacific Salt™ 2 Black Blade. using 5% Ni instead gives Ms of about -66°C (-87°F) . Para™ 3 G-10 Dark Gray Maxamet. $160.00. This uses a standard rectangular knife ground to 0.015″ prior to putting a final edge of 15 dps with a 400 grit CBN matrix stone. Through over a month of consistent use, my Paramilitary 2 blade was still sharp enough to slice through phone book paper and stick against my thumbnail. Chromium carbides are softer than vanadium carbides and therefore contribute less to wear resistance. Note that the values below are normalized to the hardness of the tested toughness specimens. Where a steel like S30V really shines is in sharpening. My S110V CATRA knife has no issues with getting sharp or in deburring it. Spyderco ParaMilitary 2 Dark Gray G10 Stonewash Maxamet C81GPDGY2 . This will be relevant to the toughness discussion later on. Die Zähigkeit ist angemessen hoch, jedoch auf Kosten der Korrosionsbeständigkeit (nicht rostfrei). Also, the chromium “in solution” to contribute to corrosion resistance was actually improved in S90V relative to the earlier S60V by careful control over the carbon and vanadium content, despite the bulk chromium being lower. why didn’t just replace the nickel in 316 steel for example by cobalt to make such steel “hardenable” ? So there is a maximum amount of niobium that can be used before this happens, somewhere in the 3-4% range. The cobalt content was increased from 2 to 2.5%, likely based on updated estimates of how much austenite stabilization is necessary after the changes to Nb, Cr, and Mo. This isn't a knife to beat on or put any lateral pressure on. I will use “0888” and “0888MAX” interchangeably throughout this article except for when specifically discussing the steel below. This was not necessarily a new discovery; it was long known in austenitic stainless steels that high Mo improved “pitting resistance,” and steels intended for seawater applications typically need high Mo. Well, it’s largely still up for debate but from my experience Maxamet matches S110V in edge retention but falls short on corrosion resistance (it’s not stainless). The results of these … However, a revised version of the steel was released, and the datasheet was revised in July 2010. $217.00. This would likely make the new version marginally worse in terms of toughness-wear resistance balance, as the original version had a higher proportion of NbC and VC and slightly less overall carbide. $230.00 . The Spyderco Para Military 2 - What more needs to be said? Elmax. 1 year ago. The Mule Team was set up with identical knife blade blank designs in different steels in an attempt to compare apples to apples when testing the knives. I don’t know of any other powder metallurgy steels that even have as much as the 3% in the current version of S110V. Native® FRN Grey Maxamet. regarding the problem of formation of large carbide particles , isn’t ball milling considered the most effective way to refine the carbides down to optimum size for edge retention/toughness combination ? The Spyderco Para Military 2 - What more needs to be said? Even with that handicap, it’s a great knife. I tested two conditions of S110V, one austenitized at 2050 and another at 2150°F, with both tempered at 500°F. $305.00. I can get the S90 much sharper than the S110. Pacific Salt™ 2. I previously wrote about cobalt additions in this article about VG10. Replacing nickel with cobalt in 316 would not make it hardenable has it would still need significant amounts of carbon to form hard martensite. Para™ 3 G-10 Black/Black Blade. There is hardenable stainless steels with just 0.03% carbon . For example, S30V had increased Mo over the earlier S90V/S60V for improved corrosion resistance, and that trend continued thereafter with other Crucible products. Native® 5 FRN Dark Blue CPM S110V. The Mo content of M390 is lower, however, so it is difficult to predict how things balance out when comparing higher Cr vs higher Mo. Spyderco Military Left Hand Black G10 Plain Edge Satin C36GPLE . Understand that a keen edge requires a dimension of around 100nm (1/10 of a micron) and the vanadium-rich carbides in Maxamet, or S110V, or even the chromium carbides in ZDP189 are 1-2 microns in size. Maxamet is a powder steel from Carpenter, an American steel company. If you frequently use your knife to slice up cardboard, there may not be a better steel than CPM-S110V. I didn’t know how realistic is Jmatpro but I’m sure that 0.5% carbon should secure 55-60 HRc hardess . Both of these steels are a real bear to sharpen up! Different steels will transform to austenite at different temperatures. Opus™ $218.00 SALE. However, I have some speculation about why the composition was changed. S90V was patented around 1996, the major innovation over previous steels was a reduction in Cr down to 14% which led to the formation of more vanadium carbide for a given amount of vanadium. This does not appear to be an issue of experimental variability as none of the tests performed on S110V resulted in as high values as the average result of S90V (each was tested 3 times). $217.00. Same techniques and tools – DMT plates, ceramic rods, diamond paste strops. That said, S30V is a great steel! With increased Cr in solution, but decreased Mo, it is not clear which version would have superior corrosion resistance. The primary difference is out-of-this-world edge retention at the cost of a minimal reduction in toughness. Spyderco Paramilitary 2 vs Benchmade Griptilian : It’s no secret the Griptilian is one of my favorites but overall the PM2 is simply a better knife. But I still don’t know for sure why S110V wasn’t as good as S90V in testing. $265.00. The Griptilian is comfortable but it feels totally different in your hands versus the PM2. The Griptilian is comfortable but it feels totally different in your hands versus the PM2. One of the major changes that was being made to S110V when compared to S90V/S125V was the addition of niobium. If the carbides form in the liquid they are much larger then if they form during solidification of the powder. Because Crucible already had steels S90V and S125V prior to S110V we have to discuss briefly the history of those steels. But not S110. Auch von einer Ruinierung der Schneide kann nicht die Rede sein. electroslag, forged ring/ … As a side note, both the original and new version of the S110V datasheet shows the following for heat treatment/hardness data: However this primarily shows the hardness that results in the upper tempering range, where Mo has the biggest effect on hardness. It’s was a belt for knives with a different chemical composition, it has a high volume of Tungsten and high in carbon which is revolutionary in the knife industry. Therefore, I see the main choice being between S110V and S90V for best very high edge retention stainless. Although Maxamet isn't stainless, but at the same time Maxamet is tougher compared to Crucible CPM S110V steel, which can result in better edge holding ability, and cutting performance with the right geometry and heat treatment. S110V has a finer carbide structure than either S90V or S125V. Manufacturing Technology - MM. CPM-S110V exhibits many of the same qualities as S90V. Maxamet ist der neueste Pulverstahl von Carpenter (auch bekannt als CarTech). However, S90V and the modified S110V (labeled 11V) have 11.5% Cr in solution while S110V (9Nb-3.5Nb) has 12.3% Cr in solution, which would provide better corrosion resistance. Maxamet is the latest powder steel from Carpenter (aka CarTech). These two factors mean that using niobium instead of vanadium can lead to a steel with high wear resistance from hard niobium carbides, while having high corrosion resistance because there is little interaction between chromium and niobium, leaving the chromium alone to contribute to corrosion resistance. The 11V steel would still be an upgrade over S90V for corrosion resistance because of the higher Mo in solution (see the Molybdenum section later on in this article). an example is an old grade called vasco MA the matrix of M2 steel . Few steels can approach this level of hardness while remaining usable in cutlery applications. So sharpening these knives to a keen edge with ceramic involves crushing those carbides (near the apex) into “nano-dust” and burnishing the matrix around them. It makes a good lock up and closing sound to the blade. They have the same blade grinds, and they are heat treated and processed by the same manufacturer, of course. In Crucible’s wear resistance testing of the original S110V, they show the following chart for wear resistance, that appears to show an improvement over S90V: However, if you plot those values versus hardness it becomes apparent that the two steels have the same wear resistance: So Crucible’s data shows that there was no improvement in wear resistance from S90V to S110V, which lines up relatively well with our edge retention testing. It could be that Crucible decided that the niobium was too close to the danger zone. And niobium carbide contains very little chromium. Maxamet. So forming austenite at high temperature is the first required step for the final heat treatment of a knife. $250.00. but the hardness is limited to only ~ 35 HRc . the results says that the retained austenite was only 7% . Manufacturing Technology - MM. I have asked current Crucible metallurgist Bob Skibitski as well as the main inventor on the patent, Alojz Kajinic, and neither knew why the change was made as they were not directly involved with it. Ball milling is used to refine carbides when they are added directly to powder, such as adding tungsten carbide to steel powder prior to HIPing. Through over a month of consistent use, my Paramilitary 2 blade was still sharp enough to slice through phone book paper and stick against my thumbnail. Does anyone know (and be allowed to share) if syderco (or any other commercial knifemakers) use the low range tempering temperatures Larrin reccomends with high speed type steels in cutlery applications. Here is the datasheet. Get Up To 95% Off Today! Native® 5 FRN Pink. There are no knife steels with corrosion resistance equal to 316, perhaps Vanax or LC200N approaches 304 but it depends on what type of test is being performed. I will discuss the differences after describing more about the general design of the steel. The patent for the steel was first filed in 2006 by inventors Alojz Kajinic, Andrzej Wojcieszynski, and Maria Sawford, all of Crucible Steel. P'Kal™ G-10 Red Trainer. Is it good for knives? Aber persönliche Erfahrungen und eine Sammlung detaillierter Informationen zu S110V. MAXAMET and S110V both share a low toughness, Maxamet offers better edge retention while the S110V offers better Corrosion resistance. Below I have plotted the steel also in relation to other stainless steels along with a hardness-toughness trendline from S60V. (This is not heat-related). This was confirmed in tests reported in the patent, where a cobalt free version had some ferrite present after heat treatment, and only reached about 54 Rc. Para™ 3 G-10 Black. In an alloy, Tungsten contributes to the harden-ability, and with this much Tungsten it’s no surprise that Spyderco hardened Maxamet up to 67-68 RC. The carbide volume of S110V is closer to S125V which is significantly coarser. $305.00. $217.00. WTS--Spyderco Mule blades (MAXAMET, K390, S110V, CTS-XHP and Cobalt Special) Prices reduced . The Manix 2 LW is available at most retailers for around $80.00. That said, S30V is a great steel! In older versions of ThermoCalc it showed that S110V with 2% Co would be fine, which Crucible would have been using at the time, but newer versions show a small amount of ferrite at 2150°F, around 4%. This choice comes down to how important corrosion resistance is to the application. Both of these steels are a real bear to sharpen up! vasco MA which contains only 0.5% C reach a maximum of 62 HRc while the M2 can reach 65-67 HRc due to presence of about 10% volume of undissolved carbides . I covered the history of them in more detail in a previous article. I'm still curious to see a custom knife made out of Maxamet though. CPM-S110V. Maxamet’s distinguishing metallurgical characteristic is the high carbon content (2.15%) and the inclusion of 10% Tungsten. However, an increase in both Cr and Mo means a significant improvement in corrosion resistance for S110V. What is its chemical composition? Model # SP-C81GPDGY2 . If you are unfamiliar with the Para Military 2, this will help you get a better understanding of one of the most popular knife designs in the past 10 years. This behavior was seen with M390 when austenitizing too high. I prefer the S35vn blah on the LW scales. If you’re interested in the Maxamet steel for your knife, and still have doubts, I would like to assure you that’s it’s a great steel for your knife, depending on your usage, its has an exceptional edge retention and excellent wear resistance, but it’s low on corrosion resistance, so if you’re an EDC user (you like to have a tactical knife on you, for opening boxes and canes or whatever your bare hands can’t handle) it’s a great knife for you! $160.00. Spyderco Native 5 Lightweight Dunkelblau Klappmesser Taschenmesser C41PDBL5 CPM-S110V 4,4 von 5 ... vs the Sage 5, but not enough to stick with the lock back. Opus™ $218.00 SALE. The test produces a number for each steel of rope cuts made, so steels can be placed in a hierarchy where the interested person can get a decent idea of where one steel might sit against another. But I can get the S90 decently sharp. Read all 5 Reviews » Paramilitary 2 Series. My guess is few heats of the original composition were ever produced, so experiments on that version are mostly academic at this point. Or very high toughness with AEB-L or 14C28N. I swap the parts around. But, If you’re a Diver, Hunter, Kitchen Chef, or you use your knife in humid places, and you’re looking for premium steel, I wouldn’t recommend the Maxamet I would instead go for the S110V stainless steel. I have a spreadsheet of all of the heat treatments I have done in the past along with ThermoCalc estimates of elements in solution. There was a somewhat surprising and little discussed composition change with S110V, for mostly unknown reasons (though probably related to manufacturing). all powder metallurgy fabricated by hot isostatic pressure which is sooo expensive , adding a ball milling step just add a little to the cost . CPM-S110V. Maybe 0.4% if the effect of cobalt is linear to increase Ms. Also be careful that all of that is in solution at the austenitizing temperature you calculated for. Sharpness: Sharpening Maxamet steel, unfortunately, will be a hard task, it’s very hard steel, so sharpening won’t be easy, also for grinding if you’re a knife maker you won’t enjoy grinding Maxamet steel. Plus cobalt reduces toughness, especially when used in amounts greater than 5%. Few steels can approach this level of hardness while remaining usable in cutlery applications. But S30 at least eventually gets sharp, S110 never does (for me). If you are unfamiliar with the Para Military 2, this will help you get a better understanding of one of the most popular knife designs in the past 10 years. Corrosion Resistance: Corrosion resistance is always related to the amount of Chromium in the steel, the Maxamet has a low amount of (4% compared to 12-14% in the stainless steels), which makes not great steel for corrosion resistance.